Comments on: A Heck of a First Impression – Part One http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/ Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Matthew 5:6 Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:49:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bob http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-46 Bob Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:44:01 +0000 http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/#comment-46 Gotcha, yeah, that's pretty much what I had read. Yeah, it's a complicated issue and the only thing that the Catholic Church teaches on the matter is that God doesn't reprobate people (or however you want to phrase it): He doesn't create people that He damns to Hell. As I'm sure you're aware, we believe in a form of predestination, but we aren't really sure how it works. We are also big into free will, but not like the Arminians. Catholics teach that man can neither choose, nor do good unaided by Grace as the Bible says. We believe that man can choose evil by himself though. Now, how Grace works in the soul so that man is able to do good is still up for debate. So far the explanation that I personally like the most is that we have two choices: choose evil or choose passivity to the Spirit who then works in us to the good. At the end of the day we believe that God wills all men to be saved, some simply choose to serve themselves rather than God. Gotcha, yeah, that’s pretty much what I had read.

Yeah, it’s a complicated issue and the only thing that the Catholic Church teaches on the matter is that God doesn’t reprobate people (or however you want to phrase it): He doesn’t create people that He damns to Hell.

As I’m sure you’re aware, we believe in a form of predestination, but we aren’t really sure how it works. We are also big into free will, but not like the Arminians. Catholics teach that man can neither choose, nor do good unaided by Grace as the Bible says. We believe that man can choose evil by himself though. Now, how Grace works in the soul so that man is able to do good is still up for debate. So far the explanation that I personally like the most is that we have two choices: choose evil or choose passivity to the Spirit who then works in us to the good. At the end of the day we believe that God wills all men to be saved, some simply choose to serve themselves rather than God.

]]> By: Evan http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-45 Evan Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:15:22 +0000 http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/#comment-45 Well, like he said, the staff hold different beliefs on the atonement, so it would be hard to nail down a specific, "this is what the church teaches" doctrine. And, that's ok. Secondary though it may be, it colors the way people talk about salvation and the way we behave when we approach the subject of bringing the Gospel to the world. To briefly explain the two extremes, hyper-Calvinists tend to focus on the sovereignty of God, believing that we human beings have nothing to do with our salvation. We're either elect or we're not, and there's nothing we can do to affect that state. The other side of that argument, Arminians or Free Will Baptists, hold that our free will on earth is an inviolable gift of God and that He depends on us to find our way to the Gospel and to make the decision to turn to Christ. I think the truth is somewhere in between these things. I'm also happy that he didn't focus on that question too hard, because that means they're not obsessed with the whole atonement question. That leaves room for focus where it belongs: on living day to day with Jesus and for Jesus and as a result of Jesus and in the saving, persevering, unmerited Grace of Jesus. I like where their focus is. Last thing: The Christian life, as noted in the last sentence above, is focused entirely around and for Jesus. That is, after all, the fount from whence real Love flows. Well, like he said, the staff hold different beliefs on the atonement, so it would be hard to nail down a specific, “this is what the church teaches” doctrine. And, that’s ok. Secondary though it may be, it colors the way people talk about salvation and the way we behave when we approach the subject of bringing the Gospel to the world.

To briefly explain the two extremes, hyper-Calvinists tend to focus on the sovereignty of God, believing that we human beings have nothing to do with our salvation. We’re either elect or we’re not, and there’s nothing we can do to affect that state. The other side of that argument, Arminians or Free Will Baptists, hold that our free will on earth is an inviolable gift of God and that He depends on us to find our way to the Gospel and to make the decision to turn to Christ.

I think the truth is somewhere in between these things. I’m also happy that he didn’t focus on that question too hard, because that means they’re not obsessed with the whole atonement question. That leaves room for focus where it belongs: on living day to day with Jesus and for Jesus and as a result of Jesus and in the saving, persevering, unmerited Grace of Jesus. I like where their focus is.

Last thing: The Christian life, as noted in the last sentence above, is focused entirely around and for Jesus. That is, after all, the fount from whence real Love flows.

]]> By: Bob http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-44 Bob Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:21:52 +0000 http://evanweeks.com/a-heck-of-a-first-impression-part-one/#comment-44 Well, this has been a fun mental workout for me. I'm Catholic, always been so. Never even looked at other Christian denominations much to see what they believed. Mostly I've just researched enough to counter the occasional Protestant who has come up to me on the street. So I've spent since you posted this looking up 5-point Calvinism and Baptist beliefs and such trying to wrap my head around the concepts listed here. It's been really fun, so thanks for getting me to look outside my own little box. I'm curious though, when you tried to pin Pastor Jay down on Free Will vs Predestination he seemed reluctant to answer. I can understand why they wouldn't want to preach heavily on these topics, first of all they are kind of heady and complex, secondly it's sort of irrelevant: either you are predestined and you're at church because of that or you have free will and you're at church because you have chosen to be there (I know there are some subtleties here that I'm skipping over for brevity's sake). Regardless you are at the church and are looking for more, and that's what they want to offer. For which I heartily applaud them. Anyway, I know it's a deep topic, but again, I'm curious why he wouldn't answer either way. Oh I also wanted to say one other thing. I know this is about your previous post but since I'm already here and too lazy to go back to the last post I wanted to point out that at the very central core of ANY ministry (particularly that of Pastor) is Love (cf 1 Cor 13). Just something to keep in mind as you think about your future and what God has called you to. God Bless Well, this has been a fun mental workout for me. I’m Catholic, always been so. Never even looked at other Christian denominations much to see what they believed. Mostly I’ve just researched enough to counter the occasional Protestant who has come up to me on the street. So I’ve spent since you posted this looking up 5-point Calvinism and Baptist beliefs and such trying to wrap my head around the concepts listed here. It’s been really fun, so thanks for getting me to look outside my own little box.

I’m curious though, when you tried to pin Pastor Jay down on Free Will vs Predestination he seemed reluctant to answer. I can understand why they wouldn’t want to preach heavily on these topics, first of all they are kind of heady and complex, secondly it’s sort of irrelevant: either you are predestined and you’re at church because of that or you have free will and you’re at church because you have chosen to be there (I know there are some subtleties here that I’m skipping over for brevity’s sake). Regardless you are at the church and are looking for more, and that’s what they want to offer. For which I heartily applaud them.

Anyway, I know it’s a deep topic, but again, I’m curious why he wouldn’t answer either way.

Oh I also wanted to say one other thing. I know this is about your previous post but since I’m already here and too lazy to go back to the last post I wanted to point out that at the very central core of ANY ministry (particularly that of Pastor) is Love (cf 1 Cor 13). Just something to keep in mind as you think about your future and what God has called you to.

God Bless

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